Curse

crosshatch123 · Feb 10, 2007, 12:24 PM // 12:24

I was going to use this build:

[skill]Reaper's Sweep[/skill] [skill]Wild Blow[/skill] [skill]Victorious Sweep[/skill] [skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill] [skill]Conviction[/skill] OPEN SLOT [skill]Mystic Vigor[/skill] Rez

And for the open slot I wondered if I should take [skill]Faithful intervention[/skill] or [skill]Vital Boon[/skill]

Which one is best to use in this build?

Both mysicism and earth prayers are 10

Servant of Kali · Feb 10, 2007, 02:04 PM // 14:04

Watchful is the best. And you can pre-prot it on teammates as well.

Vital Boon requires Signet of Pious Light, to make it fully effective, and it goes well with other Earth Enchantments, which you should use (but dont).

I dont agree with the rest of your build either, but that's up to you. You can see my overview of PvE Dervish elites at:
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10116615

crosshatch123 · Feb 10, 2007, 02:41 PM // 14:41

yeah but the problem is it costs 10 e. And the build i currently use is:

[skill]Mystic Sweep[/skill] (dont have Reapers yet, and btw I dont know why its such an useless elite according to you) [skill]Wild Blow[/skill] [skill]Victorious Sweep[/skill] [skill]Faithful Intervention[/skill] [skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill] [skill]Conviction[/skill] [skill]Heart of Fury[/skill] Rez

So watchful doesnt fit well in this build because of the energy,

Servant of Kali · Feb 10, 2007, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Well then it's up to you. I'd rather pay 10e for something that's actually useful, than 5e for something that wont do the job anyway.

Besides, the costs are 5e for Watchful and 0 energy for Faithful at 15 mysticism (which you should have).

The advantages of Watchful over Faithful:
1) Watchful heals more. Yes, it's only 50hp more, but pre-casted enchantment energy requirement isnt the same as battle-skill energy requirement
2) Watchful can be casted on teammates. Huge advantage over Faithful. Dervishes should not be whammos. Period. Watchful will therefore train your battle awareness and party-window awareness, which is the difference between a good player and inexperienced one (notice how some people ressurect very slow in PvP? Yea, that's it).
3) Watchful triggers when your health goes below 25% (unlike Faithful which is 50%). This is another big advantage watchful has over faithful.
4) 1 seconds cast means that Watchful can be casted during the battles. Faithful cannot, effectively, because it has 2sec cast and trigger at 50%, so unless you want to spend half of battle casting Faithful.. just say no.
5) Minor advantage but i'll still name it - Watchful has 25% faster recharge.
6) Minor advantage - Watchful has expiration time, which is around 72sec (60+12 enchant weapon). Why is this advantage and not disadvantage? Because it forces players to be active in combat, to observe, to react. Instead of cast-and-forget Mending-like skills, which make the player numb, and after a period of time cast-and-forget players have slower response time and lower battle awareness than players who actively use skills. So, not only is Mending bad, mathematically, but it also has other negative sideeffects, in that player learns slower. Learning slower is the worse thing you can do in this game, as it's mostly based on individual skill, and not that much on skills itself (sure skills matter, but alone they wont win).

There you go. BTW you dont have to listen to me, but what i just typed you will not find easily on any forum. If you want to use Faithful, really, i dont mind, but i will not agree it's better. Yes, i did try both. In practice, i had more satisfying results with Watchful.

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dont have Reapers yet,and btw I dont know why its such an useless elite according to you

Because there are far better alternatives for it in PvP (Melandru+Wearying), and i'd even take Wounding instead of it in PvP (unless it's a spike team of some kind, then perhaps, just perhaps.... and even then...).

So let's focus on PvE. Reaper's is bad because:
1) Melandru + Wearying is 10x better
2) Your target needs to be under 50% health. Let me repeat this, your target needs to be below 50% health. This cannot be even remotely compared to C+Space kill tactic in PvE, which Melandru/Wearying can do.
3) Wounding Strike has 3sec rechanrge, Reapers has 8 sec. You dont need 8sec to kill a foe in PvE. Moreover, you lose more seconds as you wait an enemy to get below 50%, or depending on the advantage, or he's dead soon anyway, and you cant utilize +dmg bonus Reapers gives anyway.
4) C+Space is win. With a proper hero+henchie team in Vizunah, my Melandru/Wearying Dervish there does C+space whole time, and finishes in masters without any problems. half of the time enemy dies before i reach him. And even if i do reach him, he'd die out of deep wound anyway, regardless of dmg bonus on Reapers (which i have on Wearying but just explaining why Wounding would be better than Reapers in PvE).
5) Because, again, there are simply better elites.

Now, Melandru indeed has some downtime, but it isnt that huge, and if you kill a boss it recharges as well. It's worth it, +150 health, and immunity to conditions, and an ability to spam Wearying strike constantly. Under Melandru, Wearying Strike becomes Wounding Strike with dmg bonus. Technically, you have 2 elites.
So, downtime is 50sec, uptime 70sec. But for 70sec you have 2 elites, of which one does deep wound + dmg, and the other +150hp and full immunity to conditions. Energy isnt a problem, you do have +4 regen and can put Zealous Renewal or something like it.

Servant of Kali · Feb 10, 2007, 10:44 PM // 22:44

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Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

For general purposes, i stick with Faithful so i can concentrate on other skill usage, battle progression, team/enemy actions

Aha. So basically you agreed with what i typed under #6.

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Being able to save 5e pre-battle is invaluable

If you're casting it pre-battle you should have no problems investing 10e instead of 5e. It is pre-battle after all is it not?

And once battle starts, Faithful is far less useful than Watchful.

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Being able to cast a prot on teammates as a Dervish is not practical. One, you have a very limited max energy. Two, as melee you should concentrating on taking down targets ASAP which also fulfills the same reason as protecting others.

Whether or not something isnt practical is a matter of personal skill here. I can very well attack someone and still observe my teammates health bars, and do 1-sec-emergency-cast on someone who is almost dead, and thus save him. Happened already in GvG.
Sure i have limited max energy. I didnt say im casting it randomly on teammates. I merely said that when there's an emergency i can do it. I have an option to do it.
Taking down targets asap? Oh yea i lose 1 second to save someone.. I agree with you that attacking also means protecting, but one should weigh cons and pros. Sometimes it's more beneficial to drop Watchful, and sometimes more beneficial to smack the guy.

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Admittedly one obvious difference is 25% trigger vs 50% trigger. One will temporarily save you from eminent death, while the other just helps you stay alive longer. Oh, wait isn't that the same thing?

No it's not. In practice, in battle, whether the skill trigger on 25% of 50% is huge. Try GvG for instance, and you'll understand what i mean. I'll clarify it a bit.

Your monks are there to heal. Your health can get to 50% quite often but they will heal you back, using their own energy. Watchful will be still active, in case your health goes to 25% which means alert mode, the possibility of you dying, or you would die, but Watchful triggers and heals you, at the right moment, not too soon.

Faithful on the other hand triggers as soon as you get a bit of dmg. Yes it heals you back, but it doesnt heal you when you really need it (aka to prevent spike/death). Once Faithful triggers in the middle of the battle, you spend the rest of the battle without it, or you have to recast it back, which is impractical because it's too long, and besides you also risk getting interrupted. I know this thread is mostly about PvE so interrupt wont really happen more likely, but it still leaves the fact that in those 2sec you couldve done almost 2 swings with a scythe, killing someone off.

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In the long run 1 sec cast vs 2 sec cast will not make any difference for a melee class in middle battle.

Maybe not for you. For me, that means around 100dmg less.

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The last sentence in YOUR point #6 contradicts EVERYTHING you previously say for this whole point

No it doesnt contradict. You just didnt read it carefully.

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Using Faithful over Watchful will NOT make a player lazy or absent minded concerning teammates, battle, or self.

Yes it will. You can bet that when Faithful Intervention player gets to RA, i'll wait 40 sec till he notices im dead and rezes me. Watchful Intervention player will rez me within 5sec.
To me, it's a huge difference.

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And, uh PvP?? Hasn't anyone told you? We are in the PvE forum section!

My comments were more or less aimed at PvP.

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You have to dedicate 2 skills to mitigate the Weakness from Wearing Strike

Yeah, except that Wearying has 4sec recharge, and Reapers 8sec recharge, which means you need more attack skills than i do. Which means that "dedicate 2 skills" is still less than what you will dedicate. Plus, i dedicate 2 elite-level skills, and you dedicate 1 elite + 1 normal. Do the math.

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Why is that a bad thing?

Because of the speed at which enemies die in PvE, and because of the 8sec recharge. I already commented on both. And because it's simply put conditional. Unconditional Wearying > conditional Reapers.

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First of all, why would i wait to use this skill? And can't utilize the +dmg? Its unconditional!

Then it's even worse.

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And you think foes constantly die in under 8 seconds in PvE eh? I am assuming you have been to Realm of Torment yes? Even if a foe went down that fast, you still got between 3 and 7 more foes to dispatch who have been taking dmg.

Im sure u'll be very busy TABing first to see which enemy is under 50% health, and then going to him n smacking him. Yeah..

Yes i've been to Realm of Torment. If i use Melandru+Wearying i bet they'll die under 8sec. Besides, Torment is like what, a small portion of PvE in Nightfall.

Now, im not saying Reapers never does nice kill with DP + dmg. Yes, often you can smak the guy below 50% health BUT how often do you smack someone below 35% health? You're forgetting that. For Reapers Sweep to be effective, you need to hit a target with rougly estimated 15-50% health. If you hit someone under 15% health, you wasted your elite, because Wounding Strike would be better. There's no need for extra dmg, target would die anyway. So, for Reapers sweep to achieve full potential, you need to hit it while at 15-50% health which does not happen often, and with 8sec recharge on your elite, how often does it happen? And how often does it not happen?

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MY point is, as Anet has designed it, there are counters and comparable skills matched to just about EVERY skill in this game

Yeah, find me comparable skill to Attacker's Insight. It's utterly useless.
Just so you know, ANet isnt doing perfect skill balancing, not nearly close. Sure, it's not really possible to make perfect balance, but many of their skills are indeed that bad.

If you dont believe me, why not ask some mods here, like Ensign?

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You cannot say "no, your build is rubbish cause i say these skills are better".

No, i said exactly what i had to say. I said there are good elites, there are fun and ok elites, and there are crappy elites. So yes, i can say there are crappy elites. Wow i just did

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It is based on opinion, condition, situation and ability

It's based on math, more math, practice, and yes, situation. And so far Otyugh's Cry sucks in all these categories.

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lets not keep talking in absolutes and condemning everyone else for creating new and different builds...

Look, i really dont "condemn" anyone.. as far as im concerned people can even use Otyugh's Cry. I also do like seeing diversity. Hell, if only few people used Mending i would be even ok with that

Still, this is a forum thread, one of those threads where people are more interested in effectivness of the skill, than in how cute it is. I use many many combos, and have used em before, which would be consider sub-par by a lot of people. I've used them because i had fun with it. That's pretty much it

But, if i make forum thread asking for oppinion on the build, then i expect others to do some math, or tell me what worked for them from experience. I dont expect them to tell me "look, everything is good" or "just do what you find fun"

Dean Harper · Feb 11, 2007, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Here is the build i generally use for pve and pvp:

[skill]Chilling Victory[/skill][skill]Mystic Sweep[/skill][skill]Meditation[/skill][skill]Vital Boon[/skill][skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill][skill]Faithful Intervention[/skill][skill]Avatar of Lyssa[/skill][skill]Resurrection Signet[/skill]or[skill]Signet of Pious Light[/skill]

Servant of Kali · Feb 11, 2007, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Batou of Nine

"it's mostly based on individual skill, and not that much on skills itself". Translation, you first say a skill makes a person better in combat, then you sum up saying individual skills do NOT determine player skill... The obviousness of that contradiction was not misread.

my version: "and not that much on skill itself"
your version: "skills do NOT determine.."

See the difference? No? Then i'll reiterate: skill itself is not AS important as player skill, but it IS important as well. Relatively speaking it's not as important. From absolute point of view skills are important.

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Take heed to your own words here and realize that "personal skill" should be worded "personal preference"

Personal skill and personal preferance are 2 different things.

What you want to equalize is person imcompetence with personal preferance. And horrible skills with personal preferance. I disagree.

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Again a useless PvP reference, but i will humor you. So basically, you are saying that if i use Faithful Intervention, rather then Watchful Intervention, then that makes me a bad/oblivious player? If you honestly believe that a generalization such as that is valid, then i have nothing further to say to you.

Non sequitur. *yawns*

Dude, you invent your own generalizations which have nothing to do with what i typed.

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LoL. How is it taht Reapers requires MORE attack skills? The fact of the matter is it simply frees up one slot with which i could use for ANYTHING from survival to dmg. Your beloved Melandru + Wearying combo is a good one, but again that is two REQUIRED slots for the non-elite to work w/o detriment. Reapers does NOT require additional skills. It is a stand alone elite.

Yea sure, so if you use only Reapers sweep and no other attack skills, then your overall dmg output is even lower. Great, you just proved my point.

GG.

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Yes, it is. However... AGAIN you try to argue the PvP side of it.

Im not. Im using PvP sometimes to prove the point. Why? Because in PvE you can use Mending and nothing much happens since half of the group is using equally bad skills. In PvP, you get severely punished for bad skil choices like these.

Why are you so scared of PvP comparisons? Because PvPers are better players than PvErs, so you dont feel at home once PvE is mentioned? You feel threatened because 'everything goes' in PvE and it's difficult to notice bad players, unlike in PvP? You like that dont you? Well i dont, i like it black and white, i like when people can stand behind their theories and prove them in action.

I made a typo up there, was meant to say that my comments here are aimed at PvE, which indeed they are, but i'll still use PvP examples to prove the point, because of obvious reasons.

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Yes in PvP 25% trigger and 50% trigger make a HUGE difference concerning spike dmg, degen, heals, etc.
However, in PvE both fulfil the same purpose: Damage mitigation.

*yawn* yes, and when in Tormen you get hit by a Tormen Spike, what then? You'll cry "monks ffs why didnt you heal me"?

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Do not start making assumptions... I used to play GvG constantly and am well versed.

I'll hold doubts about your PvP experiences, if you dont mind.

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then non-RoT foes die quicker, yes? So why is that an argument AGAINST Reaper's Sweep? Great! More foes will be under 50% hp even faster, then my multiple hit potential for DP + dmg is so much higher!

Yeah, with the exception of 8sec recharge on Reapers and 4sec recharge on Wearying, and 3sec recharge on Wounding, GG.

And yah im done with the topic as well, i said what i had, someone smart might learn something, so it might not be all that pointless

Xethrion · Feb 11, 2007, 03:16 PM // 15:16

Well. Batou, by deeming all PvP comparisons as 'useless' just because this is a PvE forum, you're frankly shooting yourself in the foot.

Nothing is as unforgiving as a THINKING human mind on the other team, as compared to mindless computer AI, and when push comes to shove, you can bet that PvPers will be the first ones to use (and abuse) any skills which are simply more efficient, more useful, or just plain better than other skills.

Using 'it's only PvE, and not PvP' as an excuse to come up with builds using skills that are NEVER used because they are simply just that bad, is not being creative, it's just being ignorant/bad at the game/not doing the number crunching to find effective skills.

Basically, your whole 'debate' consists of

1. LOL this is pve, not pvp!
2. We can use whatever skills we want in pve, it's creative, nobody needs pvp-level efficiency!

And as a purely PvE player myself, the argument that PvE players are able to get away with inefficient and sub-par builds just because it's PvE, deeply offends me, as you've just basically stated that PvE players are brainless and are automatically excused from needing to run good builds 'cos it's PvE, not PvP silly!'

Str0b0 · Feb 11, 2007, 03:53 PM // 15:53

Ok All that other bollux aside. Fairthful is good since you are using Mystic Regen. It provides an upkeep free enchant to buff your regen when you use it. It is spike protection which you'll want in the later stages of the game and it also provides something of a hot zone warning. If you lose Faithful it's time to run and collect yourself, reset your enchants and try again before you get yourself killed.

Coloneh · Feb 12, 2007, 03:32 AM // 03:32

i would go with what you had and use faithful, good heal with no upkeep.

crosshatch123 · Feb 12, 2007, 04:25 PM // 16:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coloneh

i would go with what you had and use faithful, good heal with no upkeep.

You mean this one?
This is the one I'm using. Energy is a bit of a problem, but thats solved, when I have a zealous,+5 e, Scythe like [wiki]Mhedi's Vow[/wiki]

[skill]Mystic Sweep[/skill] / [skill]Reaper's Sweep[/skill]
[skill]Wild Blow[/skill] [skill]Victorious Sweep[/skill] [skill]Faithful Intervention[/skill] [skill]Mystic Regeneration[/skill] [skill]Conviction[/skill] [skill]Heart of Fury[/skill] Rez